RE: Rage broadheads
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RE: Rage broadheads - 10/15/2009 10:59:13 AM
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kighty7
Posts: 51
Joined: 10/8/2009
From: Erie, PA
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I have been using the rage 2 and 3 blade since they have come out. I really like them a great deal. I believe the practice heads they give you allow you to really see what the arrow will do inflight. Ihave never had a problem with them at all. I inspect them each before I hunt. Replacing the o-rings is easy. I have had great success with them killing 3 bucks and 7 doe over the past 3 years. I have watched every deer expire in sight of the stand. To me, if the muzzy works great for you, do not switch! The most important thing is that we practice with our equipment, take ethical shots and provide a quick clean humane kill on the animal. Best of luck with what you choose.
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RE: Rage broadheads - 10/15/2009 2:31:52 PM
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buckhunter21
Posts: 2378
Joined: 4/25/2008
From: West-Central WI
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dmcianfa, thanks for being 'real' with me...I appreciate it. I pray every day and night that he's still alive out there and isn't hurt too bad. It's a heartbreaker...
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RE: Rage broadheads - 10/15/2009 2:33:54 PM
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buckhunter21
Posts: 2378
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From: West-Central WI
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quote:
Just out of curiosity, the latest rage heads- do they lock open?
They don't totally 'lock' in place. It's hard to explain, but there is a rubber band that they 'click' under upon impact. The force of the arrow hitting the target keeps pretty good pressure on the blades staying back.
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RE: Rage broadheads - 10/15/2009 3:17:34 PM
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dmcianfa
Posts: 444
Joined: 9/23/2008
From: Upriver
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No problem. I know I can be rash at times, but there's nothing more I would want than to help a fellow hunter find their buck because thats the worst feeling in the world when you lose one. In any case, we are all set in our ways to some degree and I realize that. It's not that I hate rage broadheads, cause man, they leave some whopper of holes and bloodtrails sometimes that it almost makes me want to switch, but the engineer in me always gets the best and says "it has moving parts that can defect". I don't know. Different strokes for different folks and whatever works for you. Good luck and hunt hard
_____________________________
"I enjoy and become completely immersed in the challenge and the increased opportunity to become for a time a part of nature. Deer hunting is a classical exercise in freedom. It’s a return to fundamentals that I distinctly feel are basic and right"-F.B.
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RE: Rage broadheads - 10/18/2009 9:29:59 AM
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cmarberg18
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Not to cause any more stir about the blood trails but I have to tell my story dealing with the 2 blade broadheads. The holes were so big I had some guts hanging out both sides which made the blood trail almost non existant while he was walking. Good thing was he was hit so good that he didnt go far, and when I opened him up there was massive bleeding in the chest cavity. Love these broadheads, but to each their own. I have a friend who hit a buck 1st day of PA archery season this year with a fixed blade, never did find him. Was it a bad shot? Who knows, but I do feel very confident that no matter what I hit it will be waiting for me very close to my stand!
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RE: Rage broadheads - 11/3/2009 3:16:36 AM
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dependable
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Joined: 10/26/2009
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Okay, I need to get in here. Let me first say that there is a longer story behind this, and if you want to read it go to the genereal discussion forum or click on this link to hear what happened to me with the Rage 2 last week: http://forum.deeranddeerhunting.com/tm.aspx?m=55757 .
I was completely sold on the Rage 2. Last year I took a shot at a big doe through the screen on my blind (after being told by both Primos staff and Rage Broadheads staff that the blades will NOT deploy) and either it deployed and flew down, or I hit a small branch at 20 yards. Either way, thank God it was a complete miss under that big doe. BUt to this day I have always wondered if it was the Rage.
This year . . .
Let's go back about 4 weeks ago. I shot a big doe at 30.75 yards with the Rage 2. She was slightly quartering towards me. I got a complete pass through and it went through one lung and through the stomach. Could have caught the liver but I doubt it. I looked at the arrow and called a buddy.
Now, before I continue, I will say I was not worried. Everything I had ever heard was that no matter how you hit them, they are not going to go 50 yards. I have even heard that "no deer has ever gone 100 yards after being shot with a Rage".
2 hours later we started the tracking. It had been raining lightly, and we found no blood. Nada. But we followed the trail and I went a little right and John went left. I was off ahead of him and he yelled at me. I ran over and he said that the doe just jumped up and took off. He said it took her about 30 seconds to stand up as she wobbled, etc. But the bottom line is I said let's cut out now and come back in about 4 hours. So we came back later and started again. Where she was laying down (about 40 yards from impact) there were two piles of blood with lots of lung material and blood. We follwed a very sparse blood trail and after she went another 60-80 yards we lost the blood trail. So that day we had spent about 4 hours on her trail. The next day I put in another 3 hours. We never found her and I believe she went out into the bog/swamp. I was not interested in dying over a doe so I just gave it up.
Next deer. I will not go into the long story, because you can read it and see the photos in the other section I noted at the beginning. But I shot this big 8 pointer last Tuesday at 6:15 p.m. Unfortunately I was just behind the liver and sunk that Rage right into his stomach. I shot him at 22 yards straight broadside. He stumbled left and right and hopped up a few yard and just stood there for 4-5 minutes with that arrow sticking out abou 6-8 inches and that G5 lighted knock just blinking at me!!!! Why no pass through? I could not beleive it. Now, I figured that buck would just stand there and just fall over. Not a chance. He just mosied off toward all the corn.
We let him go over night. I returned the next day with 3 other sets of eyes. No blood trail. No hair. I saw where he went and eventually after about 2 hours we found blood about 100 or 125 yards away. We followed it and after another hour or two finally found my bloody arrow and a huge pile of blood in the corn. And . . . coyote tracks. Yup, they found him and jumped him. He crashed through that corn and hopped a tall barbed wire fence (leaving some flesh on the fence, too) and they finished him off about 30 yards from there and proceeded to eat an entire hind quarter.
The bottom line is that the Rage did not pass through. It did deploy somewhat. But after a very painful and frustrating track, the bottom line is that this buck traveled between 250 and 300 yards. It was not pretty.
So, once again my hunting buddy, one of Cabela's experts, told me what I heard earlier a couple of times. He said, "I told you to use the G5 Montec last year. I told you again this year. You didn't listen. He said it is not IF the mechanical will fail, it is WHEN." He said, "It's not worth all this, Mark. You can go out and drop 5 does and 5 monster bucks tomorrow and I am not going to change my mind. Because it may be the next one or maybe the one after that. But eventually you are going to have a mechanical failure and it probably won't be the doe, it will be a monster drop tine and you will want to puke!" He said it is not worth the question of the dependability.
Now this will get more interesting.
Today I called Rage and spoke with Dave, who deals with the problems. He listened to this entire story. He said he was sorry to hear it and admitted that he hears this a lot. He told me that if I wanted more penetration and pass throughs, that I should switch to the 3 blade. Then in the next second he told me that at many angles they get a lot of reports that one or two of the blades do not deploy, hence the 2 blade is more penetration. His exact words about malfunctions: "Well, that blade is cutting 2 inches, it's bound to hit a rib and deflect."
I said, "But in your videos and ads you show it going through 1/4" plywood?"
His response word for word: "Yes, but that is a fixed, solid material. A deer's rib or shoulder blade is not fixed. It has give and take and a lot can happen when the Rage hits that. And it probably will deflect and not go through the rib. If that happens, you will not get a pass through."
Then I told him that I watched their new "uncensored video" with blood, guts and gaping wounds. By the way, if you have not seen that 15 minute video, it is worth watching! I told him I was almost sold all over again. But then I mentioned something. I asked him about the Drurys and Chuck Adams. I told him that if I asked Fred Eichler, he would tell me Muzzy is the best because he married Michelle, who owns the company. If I asked Chuck, who gets free Rage broadheads and can hit anything he wants, he will tell me it's like throwing an axe through animal. He told me bluntly that he has talked to the Drury brothers a number of times. He said, "They're just like you and me. They're regular guys. And they lose deer with the Rage, too. I hear their complaints and then just ship them more free product. It's going to happen."
Then I asked him about their new "guarantee", that if I am not satisfied I can get my money back. I told him I would like to ship him all my 6 rage broad heads and the receipts from Cabela's and get a refund. He told me that they had to be purchased in 2009 in order to honor that.
So the bottom line is that my only option was to send all of my Rage 2's to him and he will send me two new packages. He said that they did make a couple of changes this year that I may not be able to see, but they have helped the deployment.
Are you guys/gals getting the picture here? Even he admitted to me that he hears this all the time. He even mentioned that they also own another company that has only fixed blade broad heads and I should give them a try. THe bottom lines is that the Rage can work. And it may work a lot of the time. BUt it WILL FAIL at some point. I trailed two deer this year and miraculously recovered this nice buck. But I should have gotten both of them with the big "gaping wound channels" they talk about.
Maybe I am off on some of this. But the facts are the facts. What's real is real. And the Rage is not all that everyone has cracked it up to be. If I had a free Matthews bow and a free TruGlow sight and free Swackers . . . I'd be singing thier praises from the mountain tops. I am saddened by the performance this year. If someone would have challenged me this summer, I would have bit off their head while proudly wearing my Rage cap!!
Can't wait to hear what happens next in this thread.
Mark
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RE: Rage broadheads - 11/3/2009 8:04:29 AM
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CB on the run
Posts: 113
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There is no doubt that mechanical broadheads have a failure risk. There is a trade off in using mechaincals vs. fixed blades. You have to know and except their inherent limitations. I personally would not shoot them though screening and not expect a problem. Your setting the situation up for possible failure. But more importantly lets evaulate you shots. By your own admission two gut shots. There is no way you caught the liver on the 1st as this organ will not stop bleeding with medical intervention and the deer would not have been alive 4 hours later. Are you confusing coagulated blood for pieces of lung? If your seeing pieces of lung it means that the lung was destroyed. A deer can run fair distance on one lung but if it's pumping out pieces it is not going to be alive 4 hours later. But a gut shot deer can last 8-12 hours and will continue to travel if pushed that why most experts recommend leaving the deer overnight. Please do not take the above sentences as scolding but rather education. My opinions are based on 35 years of hunting, plus/minus 50 deer harvested, another 100 or so tracked for family/friends etc and a loose association with 'Deer Search'.
Any broadhead can deflect and any broadhead can fail on any given date. You as the hunter have to make the best possible equiment decisions for your style of hunting. Media and marketing attempt to sway your decision. No one here should be telling you the a certain brand of broadhead is right for you, that is for you to decide and the 'Rage' may not be right for you. However, IMO you cannot totally fault the Rage for the three senerios you described, one deflection and two gut shots. Good luck.
CB
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RE: Rage broadheads - 11/3/2009 8:27:40 AM
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gunther89
Posts: 603
Joined: 4/24/2008
From: Southwest,Wisconsin
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I shoot the rage 2 broadheads and I will never shoot any different broadhead. I saw what they can do for you if you make a bad shot on a deer this past weekend on a mature buck. I hit him in the guts and after waiting 6 hours we found him bedded down 200 yards away. He wasn't dead yet so I had to shoot him but the broadhead put a huge hole into him and he had massive internal bleeding. Only reason I found this buck was because of these broadheads.
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Scott
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RE: Rage broadheads - 11/3/2009 8:53:48 AM
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passin through
Posts: 682
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From: North Louisiana
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I shoot the Rage 2 blades from my compound and have never had any problems. I switched to them to get a better blood trail than I was getting out of the Muzzy's I started with. As of now I will never switch, they do what I ask them too. On the flip side though, they are not for everyone and an improper (read: "lite" )arrow setup with out a whole bunch of punch may not perform optimally with this head. Its all about the setup though and learning as much as you can about the heads and what they can and cant do based on physics not advertising
If you really want to pursue the science of broad heads check out Dr. Ashbys threads on tradgang.com or his articles in traditional bowhunter (Last months has a good pic of a rage stuck in a buffalo rib bone) That gentleman and his collegues have made a mission out of sudying broadhead design and penetration/performance. The overall results? Not too good for any mechanical ......here's the "but" though they work for me and since I don't go after grizzly with a longbow or compound or whatever, I will stay with what I got since it works on what I shoot(for me). I will say this though, after doing some homework on this: If I did go after really big stuff....2 blade fixed, single bevel with a ton of wieght and decent speed behind it.
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It matters not the weapon nor its caliber, rather the caliber of the one who wields it.
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RE: Rage broadheads - 11/3/2009 9:21:09 PM
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Vikinghater
Posts: 83
Joined: 9/22/2009
From: Manitowoc WI
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I am highly uneducated on this subject and appreciate everyones posts to read and learn from. Now with that said, I have a simple-minded question for those in the know. I read dependable's post about how he is dissappointed about not getting a pass-thru on the gut shot 8-point. Now I would personally think you would NOT want a pass-thru because the arrow would get thrashed around against brush, trees ect. keeping the entrance hole open and thrusting the broadhead around in the animal. Am I wrong in this thinking? Is it better to have the arrow go all the way out?
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RE: Rage broadheads - 11/3/2009 9:53:06 PM
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VA Hunter
Posts: 44
Joined: 12/17/2008
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Put one down tonight with a 2 blade. Complete pass through. Ran 15 yards. Lay'd down and was done in about 5 minutes. I really like the Rage's. Only down side is the o-rings. Anyone know what size they are?
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RE: Rage broadheads - 11/4/2009 1:58:31 AM
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dependable
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Vikinghater asked:
"Now I would personally think you would NOT want a pass-thru because the arrow would get thrashed around against brush, trees ect. keeping the entrance hole open and thrusting the broadhead around in the animal. Am I wrong in this thinking? Is it better to have the arrow go all the way out?"
I'm speaking for everyone on the forum, I think, when I say I'm proud of you for being honest and asking a valid question. The answer is that what you are thinking is not correct and yes, you want a pass through shot dearly. The reason: you have an entrance wound and an exit wound. If that arrow hangs up stuck in the deer the hole is plugged up and there will be very little blood trail for you to follow. Now, if you have two gaping holes from the Rage if it deploys properly, you will have blood spilling out all over. If you have not seen this yet, I recommend going to the Rage broad head website and viewing their new UNCENSORED 15 minute video. This is all the stuff they can't show on TV. It will show you gaping holes and blood gushing all over the place. It is very graphic and almost completely turned me around on the Rage heads.
I don't hunt high up in trees, but all my buddies do. And they tell me that when they punch that arrow through from high up and it exits low, all the blood that pools up just spills out especially bad out of the lower wound. The more holes and the bigger they are the better. I trust everyone agrees.
Dependable
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RE: Rage broadheads - 11/4/2009 2:03:54 AM
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dependable
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VA Hunter . . .
the O rings are easy. When I first got the rages I had a couple of issues with trying to snap those blades back in place. At the time I was using my Alpine quiver with the foam up in the head and only one place to snap in my arrow. They kept coming apart and opening up. Now I bought the Vortxx 5-arrow quiver and love it. It is compact and holds the arrows in two places so my Rage heads don't touch anything. But I digress.
I just called Rage about my concern and they took great care of me. They sent me a package of 50 O-rings, told me how to replace them and even sent me a cool camo Rage cap! Sweet, huh? So I recommend calling their customer service and I'll be they will send you a pack of O-rings. But in case they don't, they sell them at Cabela's for a couple bucks.
Dependable
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RE: Rage broadheads - 11/4/2009 6:23:13 AM
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Vikinghater
Posts: 83
Joined: 9/22/2009
From: Manitowoc WI
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I did watch the video , and thats where I got my question from. I do understand what you say about a pass thru and agree it makes sense. The reason I ask is cause I am getting back into bowhunting and need all the advice I can gather.
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RE: Rage broadheads - 11/4/2009 10:33:21 AM
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DeanoZ
Posts: 940
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From: New Jersey
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I think it bears repeating...regardless of the broadhead shot placement is critical and a Rage will not necessarily be the "equalizer" in the event you have a bad shot. I shot a buck last year too far back, had decent blood for 100 yrds and then nothing..looked for weeks and still nothing. I gut shot a Doe last year and ended up tracking her for 200 yrds and she was still alive..bedded down, but finally expired after being jumped twice. The post mortem revealed I'd nicked her one lung and the exit wound came out the back bottom third of her gut..but still high enough for the blood to pool inside and not out...she bled out internally in other words. So the lesson learned for me at least is shot placement and yes you need a pass through for the reasons dependable stated. I still use the Rage's and will continue to as I have not experienced any issues with their deployment and believe a bad shot with a fixed broadhead would reveal no better result than a bad shot with a mechanical.
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RE: Rage broadheads - 11/4/2009 6:15:28 PM
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buckhunter21
Posts: 2378
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From: West-Central WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Vikinghater
I am highly uneducated on this subject and appreciate everyones posts to read and learn from. Now with that said, I have a simple-minded question for those in the know. I read dependable's post about how he is dissappointed about not getting a pass-thru on the gut shot 8-point. Now I would personally think you would NOT want a pass-thru because the arrow would get thrashed around against brush, trees ect. keeping the entrance hole open and thrusting the broadhead around in the animal. Am I wrong in this thinking? Is it better to have the arrow go all the way out?
Bottom line, you want a complete pass-through so you have an entry and exit hole...Which increases the blood trail which then increases your chances of tracking and finding the animal.
You do raise a valid point though. When an arrow does not pass through the animal, and the broadhead is in the body cavity, the more the deer moves the more damage it will do. But, with that said, I'll take a complete pass through everytime verus this.
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RE: Rage broadheads - 11/5/2009 10:32:58 AM
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dmcianfa
Posts: 444
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I like to hear those people that say, "Oh, rage broadheads are the best and I will never shoot anything else cause they have always done me good". Hah, wait until you shoot a booner and it gets away from you from lack of pass through on a quartering away or to shot because of deflection. Once you have that pit in your stomach with no blood to follow, all you will see is your RAGE arrow stuck in the animal and him trotting away. Someone said it well in this post and truly sums it up the best. "It's a mechanical head, mechanics are bound to fail, it's not a question of if, it's when" It's simple physics. Good shot, bad shot, whatever, I don't care, mechanics are bound to fail with moving parts involved. First lesson they teach you in mechanical engineering 101. KISS theory. Keep It Simple Stupid, when designing products. I hear so many stories of lost deer from those using rage's, yet, I don't hear as many with fixed. I do hear some yes, but not as many, with every season that passes. A fixed blade cannot fail to open, this is true. Maybe it's good to have an entry wound that's larger in diameter, but if there is no exit on a consistent basis, how are you going to track the animal with blood pooling in it cavity instead of droplets being formed on the ground. An entry wound is on the middle to upper portion for most bowhunters, who generally are elevated above the animal. Blood will not come out of this wound until it surpasses it during filling. Yes, the wound channel is larger, but that means more resistence as well. More resistence means less penetration by friction, and risk of incomplete pass through. No pass through, no or very little blood trail. It's not rocket science. I agree it's large and looks very menacing, but don't let looks fool you. You can have a bad shot with a fixed head, yes, but it will never "not open" and has much less resistence going through the cavity and punching through bone for adequate pass through. Rubber rings or bands holding the blades open, CMON get real, that is asking for trouble I say. If you really need the proof, do a study on some pig carcasses and gather the data at different angles and make sure you have enough samples to reflect a true population.
My buddy just lost a nine last week using rage. His shot was 4 inches back, but he saw his arrow half way in. He'll never use rage again he says, but I couldn't convince him otherwise beforehand until he experienced it himself. Don't believe all the hoopla and marketing. They are there to sell you a product, not necessarily the "best" thing out there. I'm amazed at the suckers that see videos and pro's using them and instantly think this will happen with them EVERY(<==key word) time. Word to the wise, if the pro's don't find a deer while using the rage head because of failure, do you really think it's not in their contract to not show this event to the TV viewing public. They will film another until they get it right or use hounds to track the animal if there is minimal trail. Many of us do not have these options. If they did show such an even it would be marketing suicide and rage simply would not allow this to happen as they are a business and those that work for businesses (pros) do as they are told or they lose their paycheck/funding. Maybe it does leave a slightly better trail with a wider entry and maybe exit wound, sometimes if it passes through. But please, walk the extra 50-100 yards on a consistent fixed blade trail and stop being lazy I say. I think alot of times that what it boils down to, people don't want to spend the time and effort to track a blood trail. They want the biggest and brightest blood trail they can, which is fine, I agree, I do to. But not at the cost of my arrow not passing through bone or rib or scalpula and having no blood trail 50% of the time if I'm slightly off my mark or at a weird angle. Not a trade-off I'm willing to accept and I would certainly not go to vegas with the odds portrayed by them I know that. Could be a booner or poper next time. Instead of hanging above your mantle as a testiment to your hard work and persistence, it's left for the coyotes to tear up and maybe you'll find the horns down the road and shed a tear then, no pun intended. My true feelings on the matter, so please I'm not singling anyone out here, just stating what I feel is true and is only an opinion.
< Message edited by dmcianfa -- 11/5/2009 11:28:48 AM >
_____________________________
"I enjoy and become completely immersed in the challenge and the increased opportunity to become for a time a part of nature. Deer hunting is a classical exercise in freedom. It’s a return to fundamentals that I distinctly feel are basic and right"-F.B.
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RE: Rage broadheads - 11/5/2009 11:17:58 AM
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Squirrelhawker
Posts: 412
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This debate will always be with us as long as there will be mechs.
I have weighed in before, and my opinions are searchable for any with too much time on their hands.
After reading the latest posts in this thread, and pondering, there are still constants, facts and annoying questions that can be ignored by some if they wish, but they remain nonetheless:
- A flat, 90 degree, ribcage shot behind the shoulder, will always be the easiest in terms of penetration. Anything else and the variables begin to appear.
- Bow poundage and arrow speed aside, there is no, and will never be, any "free lunch" in the world of physics. In order to set something in motion, you will need energy to do it. Got enough, all the time, when the chips are down? God bless.
- Any moving part will always be inherently weaker than its fixed counterpart.
- Any blade that does not remain in a fixed position once inside an animal, runs the very real risk of becoming less effective at secondary cutting.
These are IMO, physics-based truths that stand irregardless of mine or any other opinions one way or another on the use of mechs.
We hear a great deal lately about the size of the holes the rage makes.
I submit that the size of the hole we make in an animal with an arrow is nowhere near the deciding factor in its killing ability.
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RE: Rage broadheads - 11/5/2009 2:24:13 PM
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buckhunter21
Posts: 2378
Joined: 4/25/2008
From: West-Central WI
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quote:
My buddy just lost a nine last week using rage.
I should go on and tell stories about other hunters that have lost their deer with FIXED heads. Hm. You seem pretty set in your ways but you keep on saying the same thing over and over...I think we get your point.
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RE: Rage broadheads - 11/5/2009 4:41:03 PM
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dmcianfa
Posts: 444
Joined: 9/23/2008
From: Upriver
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quote:
ORIGINAL: buckhunter21
quote:
My buddy just lost a nine last week using rage.
I should go on and tell stories about other hunters that have lost their deer with FIXED heads. Hm. You seem pretty set in your ways but you keep on saying the same thing over and over...I think we get your point.
I know people as well that have lost deer with a fixed blade, that's bowhunting, but not as many as those that have used rages. And they have only been on the market for a few years. I know of more rage losses in three years time than 20 years of bowhunting hearing fixed broadhead losses. And please, don't talk to me like I'm your kid or something, I have just as much right to post my thoughts here as you do, no? As I said in my last post. I'm not directing it at anyone in particular and don't take it personal, clearly you must have missed that. It's an opinion is all. Jeesh
< Message edited by dmcianfa -- 11/5/2009 4:47:07 PM >
_____________________________
"I enjoy and become completely immersed in the challenge and the increased opportunity to become for a time a part of nature. Deer hunting is a classical exercise in freedom. It’s a return to fundamentals that I distinctly feel are basic and right"-F.B.
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