Who's Up On P&Y Rules?
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Who's Up On P&Y Rules? - 10/30/2009 10:11:16 AM
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Woods Walker
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From: Northern Illinois
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I know that in their "fair chase" rules, it says that game cannot be taken with the aid of an electronic device. So in that vein, does this include:
Lumenocks
Lighted sight pins
Two way radios/cell phones
Electronic range finders
Heat sensing devices
Does anyone know?
< Message edited by Woods Walker -- 10/30/2009 10:15:40 AM >
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RE: Who's Up On P&Y Rules? - 11/4/2009 9:41:05 PM
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eagle eye
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The only information that I can find is from the P&Y site regarding fair chase it is as follows
"By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached." The key to this may be the electronic device attached to a bow as it relates to lighted sights.
I am looking forward to further clarification on this from someone whom has more information
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Enjoying the moment and always striving to enhance our hunting heritage
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RE: Who's Up On P&Y Rules? - 11/4/2009 9:49:53 PM
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DeerCamp
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Would a camera count as that on a bow or a gun?
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RE: Who's Up On P&Y Rules? - 11/4/2009 10:13:44 PM
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Marc Anthony
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They're referring to an electronic tracking device! The lighted nock's, etc. are not to "aid in pursuing or attracting game" as they aid "the hunter" by helping them locate their shot placement.
< Message edited by Marc Anthony -- 11/4/2009 10:18:08 PM >
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RE: Who's Up On P&Y Rules? - 11/4/2009 10:23:58 PM
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Woods Walker
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From: Northern Illinois
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Well I do recall that back in the 80's, that two way radios were on the VERBOTEN list. If this is still the case, then would cell phones be considered this way also?
And back then, you couldn't claim a P&Y kill if you used an electronic game call of any sort, even if it was legal in the area you were hunting. So in that regard, would a deer decoy that had an electric powered tail wagger rule you out?
< Message edited by Woods Walker -- 11/4/2009 10:26:34 PM >
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RE: Who's Up On P&Y Rules? - 11/4/2009 10:54:38 PM
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DeanoZ
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I think common sense applies here...none of those items listed would aid a hunter in pursuing or attracting game as Marc indicated.
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RE: Who's Up On P&Y Rules? - 11/4/2009 10:59:46 PM
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Woods Walker
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From: Northern Illinois
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So a two way radio would NOT be considered an aid to pursuing game? How can that be?
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RE: Who's Up On P&Y Rules? - 11/4/2009 11:17:18 PM
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DeanoZ
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Woodsie I'm going to guess because its used between two hunters to communicate. Now your probably going to say "that's right...they let each other know when a deer is coming by their stand"...and my reply would be...ok and...? There was no "attracting" or "pursuing" involved in that conversation...if the two could see each other and used hand signals wouldn't that be the same thing? Maybe, I'm missing your point altogether?
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RE: Who's Up On P&Y Rules? - 11/4/2009 11:28:30 PM
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Woods Walker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DeanoZ
Woodsie I'm going to guess because its used between two hunters to communicate. Now your probably going to say "that's right...they let each other know when a deer is coming by their stand"...and my reply would be...ok and...? There was no "attracting" or "pursuing" involved in that conversation...if the two could see each other and used hand signals wouldn't that be the same thing? Maybe, I'm missing your point altogether?
Well, having someone telling me with an electronic device what was coming towards me in a hunting situation I would most certainly consider "pursuit". And no, hand signals would NOT be the same, because they aren't electronic.
But that's not the point. I know that in the 80's (when I still cared about it...."it" being "making the book"), if you shot a P&Y scoring buck and two way radios were used, then you couldn't enter it. I'm just asking if this rule is still in effect, and if it is, if it would also apply to cell phones, which essentially do the same thing.
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RE: Who's Up On P&Y Rules? - 11/4/2009 11:32:15 PM
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Powell1120
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I know this isn't the P&Y view, but maybe it will help, I know here in Iowa when it comes to 2 way radios you are allowed to use them for nothing more than communicating that everyone is in place to start a drive or that everyone has cleared the field. The DNR has been know to scan the air waves a listen to hunters talk. Lets just say they become very agitated once you start calling out the location of deer as you push them around through the timber to the other hunters. Radios obviously do not attract deer but they sure would give the hunters a distinct edge once one has been spotted.
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RE: Who's Up On P&Y Rules? - 11/5/2009 5:24:33 AM
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Marc Anthony
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2 way radios were used as a direct device for the sole purpose of tracking game and communicating between 2 parties. Cell phones are not necessarily used by "2 way" and can be used by the millions that own one. Now if 2 people use them for the purpose of tracking game, then it would not be considered a trophy by the P&Y standards. It's all about fair chase and keeping the sport as competitive and honest as possible. Whether or not hunters see it this way, it really was another way to implement conservation of game animals.
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RE: Who's Up On P&Y Rules? - 11/5/2009 9:00:03 AM
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JPH
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quote:
...then it would not be considered a trophy by the P&Y standards. It's all about fair chase and keeping the sport as competitive and honest as possible...
^ Exactly why I do not give a rip what the P&Y Club thinks! If the standards were exclusively driven by the desire to assist conservation and keep hunting safe and humane, then I would be a P&Y guy. Toss in an artificial definition of a "trophy" or making hunting "competitive" and you lose me.
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RE: Who's Up On P&Y Rules? - 11/5/2009 9:13:21 AM
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Marc Anthony
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JPH
quote:
...then it would not be considered a trophy by the P&Y standards. It's all about fair chase and keeping the sport as competitive and honest as possible...
^ Exactly why I do not give a rip what the P&Y Club thinks! If the standards were exclusively driven by the desire to assist conservation and keep hunting safe and humane, then I would be a P&Y guy. Toss in an artificial definition of a "trophy" or making hunting "competitive" and you lose me.
I feel quite the contrary. Toss in "trophy" by the P&Y standards and you have more of a challenge. Remember, they are not telling anyone that their buck IS NOT A TROPHY, it's just not by their standards! By eliminating the mechanical aspect/advantage, if offers more of a fair chase to the animal. Add the word "competitive" and it becomes a different sport.
It's just a club guys! Any club has their standards. Despite what anyone argues, it really is about fair chase and conservation with a competitive edge. Nobody has to join but if they do, it means they harvested their buck by a set of standards...and great one's at that!
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RE: Who's Up On P&Y Rules? - 11/5/2009 9:46:08 AM
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dmcianfa
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I am quite sure rangefinders are not part of the "can not use" list, being that it doesn't attach to your bow and is a visual aid not directly relating to the shot. lighted sight pins are "ok" as well as long as they are not battery powered and use the light from the sun to generate. There are many substances in nature that do the same thing, such as certain pigments and what not. Heat sensing equipment I'm not sure of though. Not even sure what you would use this for?
Let's try and not make this a "Is Pope and Young, good or bad" thread, cause I see this getting nasty before it's all said and done.
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"I enjoy and become completely immersed in the challenge and the increased opportunity to become for a time a part of nature. Deer hunting is a classical exercise in freedom. It’s a return to fundamentals that I distinctly feel are basic and right"-F.B.
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RE: Who's Up On P&Y Rules? - 11/5/2009 9:48:40 AM
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ranwin33
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Additionally the record book keeping provides a tool to track "conservation success" throughout the country, albeit not the best method or measurement, but a tool none the less.
Competitive isn't a bad thing when used in a proper context, i.e. in conjunction with fair chase. If we remove the idea of competitiveness from hunting then anything goes; we could throw out seasons, we could allow all methods of hunting (hey set me on the side of a mountain with my .50 cal M2 machinegun, and I'll just mow down the entire herd of elk, or maybe a nice howitzer would do the job), there would be no more standards, laws, or rules.
And there is nothing wrong with the idea of a trophy, or setting a standard that defines a "trophy" by some clubs definition. We need to stop beating ourselves up over the use of that term, who among us doesn't want to shoot a big antlered deer. I'm not seeing a spike buck of the day picture on the D&DH website, I don't see any articles about how to grow better forkhorns, or stories about hunting monster spikes. We need to just come to term with the idea, we like deer with big antlers.
I say, embrace your inner trophy hunter  .
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A peculiar virtue in wildlife ethics is the hunter ordinarily has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct. Whatever his acts, they are dictated by his own conscience...It is difficult to exaggerate the importance of this fact.
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RE: Who's Up On P&Y Rules? - 11/5/2009 2:11:06 PM
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buckhunter21
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I know for sure two way radios are out, and I'm also sure that heat sensing devices are out too. Not sure on the other things but I would think you could use lumenoks, lighted sight pins (tru glo - style), etc.
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RE: Who's Up On P&Y Rules? - 11/5/2009 3:02:20 PM
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JPH
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Marc Anthony and Ranwin33, you both misunderstand me.
I am not bashing the P&Y Club or those who belong to it. Do whatever you want, so long as it is legal and humane. I am saying that I personally do not care what their standards are, and I doubt I ever will. I am not real big on clubs in general and I really do not have time for clubs that go to the trouble of setting standards for me. The state game commissions and my own conscious serve me quite well, thank you.
I remember having my first big buck scored. I brought the rack into the bow shop, beaming from ear to ear. Even before the scorer put a tape to it, the lackeys leaning on the counter were trying to add up my deductions. It was like they were happy when my score dropped from 152" to 145". The whole experience made me sick. I never sent in that score sheet and I never again had any of my deer officially measured.
I still measure all of my deer and record them in my own notes. I still work to kill mature, large antlered bucks. I love it. But I will not soil my hunting experience by making it a competition with anyone else. I played competitive team sports and I dabble in individual sports now. That is how I satisfy my desire to compete. Another thing I will not do is objectify the deer I have been blessed with. Every one of them was a life that I took and they deserve my reverence. I consider a trophy to be an object and I will not turn those magnificent animals into that.
Again, if you want to be a part of the P&Y club, go for it! The reason I am not boils down to the words "competition" and "trophy".
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RE: Who's Up On P&Y Rules? - 11/5/2009 5:15:09 PM
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69Viking
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JPH
Marc Anthony and Ranwin33, you both misunderstand me.
I am not bashing the P&Y Club or those who belong to it. Do whatever you want, so long as it is legal and humane. I am saying that I personally do not care what their standards are, and I doubt I ever will. I am not real big on clubs in general and I really do not have time for clubs that go to the trouble of setting standards for me. The state game commissions and my own conscious serve me quite well, thank you.
I remember having my first big buck scored. I brought the rack into the bow shop, beaming from ear to ear. Even before the scorer put a tape to it, the lackeys leaning on the counter were trying to add up my deductions. It was like they were happy when my score dropped from 152" to 145". The whole experience made me sick. I never sent in that score sheet and I never again had any of my deer officially measured.
I still measure all of my deer and record them in my own notes. I still work to kill mature, large antlered bucks. I love it. But I will not soil my hunting experience by making it a competition with anyone else. I played competitive team sports and I dabble in individual sports now. That is how I satisfy my desire to compete. Another thing I will not do is objectify the deer I have been blessed with. Every one of them was a life that I took and they deserve my reverence. I consider a trophy to be an object and I will not turn those magnificent animals into that.
Again, if you want to be a part of the P&Y club, go for it! The reason I am not boils down to the words "competition" and "trophy".
JPH I couldn't agree with you more. I was reading through this trying to figure out how to put how I feel into words and you nailed it. Good luck this year!
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RE: Who's Up On P&Y Rules? - 11/5/2009 5:24:11 PM
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dmcianfa
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Yes, very well put JPH. My thoughts of P&Y I'll keep to myself for now, but I think you speak for a lot of folks with your words here.
_____________________________
"I enjoy and become completely immersed in the challenge and the increased opportunity to become for a time a part of nature. Deer hunting is a classical exercise in freedom. It’s a return to fundamentals that I distinctly feel are basic and right"-F.B.
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RE: Who's Up On P&Y Rules? - 11/5/2009 6:15:20 PM
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Marc Anthony
Posts: 167
Joined: 8/23/2009
From: Central, IL.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JPH
Marc Anthony and Ranwin33, you both misunderstand me.
I am not bashing the P&Y Club or those who belong to it. Do whatever you want, so long as it is legal and humane. I am saying that I personally do not care what their standards are, and I doubt I ever will. I am not real big on clubs in general and I really do not have time for clubs that go to the trouble of setting standards for me. The state game commissions and my own conscious serve me quite well, thank you.
I remember having my first big buck scored. I brought the rack into the bow shop, beaming from ear to ear. Even before the scorer put a tape to it, the lackeys leaning on the counter were trying to add up my deductions. It was like they were happy when my score dropped from 152" to 145". The whole experience made me sick. I never sent in that score sheet and I never again had any of my deer officially measured.
I still measure all of my deer and record them in my own notes. I still work to kill mature, large antlered bucks. I love it. But I will not soil my hunting experience by making it a competition with anyone else. I played competitive team sports and I dabble in individual sports now. That is how I satisfy my desire to compete. Another thing I will not do is objectify the deer I have been blessed with. Every one of them was a life that I took and they deserve my reverence. I consider a trophy to be an object and I will not turn those magnificent animals into that.
Again, if you want to be a part of the P&Y club, go for it! The reason I am not boils down to the words "competition" and "trophy".
JPH, I never for once thought you were bashing the P&Y, not sure why you thought we would think so?
Anyway, the competition isn't between hunter to hunter, it's between hunter and animal! That's where the phrase "fair chase" comes to play.
If someone got pleasure of seeing your score drop, that's the individual, not the P&Y system. That would be compared to someone who doesn't like Christians because they saw a guy who called himself a Christian, steal, and obviously stealing isn't part of Christianity, it's a problem with the individual.
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"A fool learns from his own mistake but a wiseman learns from a fool's mistake "
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