Bare Bones Pt 2 - The Spine
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Bare Bones Pt 2 - The Spine - 11/6/2009 2:20:50 PM
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ranwin33
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From: Live Kansas - Hunt Missouri
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Does anyone here also prefer Dr. Bishop's shot to the spine when hunting deer? To me, the odds of shooting high and missing or merely wounding far outweigh the benefit of dropping a deer on the spot.
I would never take a spine shot with a bow, but I was surprised to read it might be acceptable with a gun. Don't you accomplish the same thing with a shoulder shot and isn't the margin for error greater with the shoulder shot?
_____________________________
A peculiar virtue in wildlife ethics is the hunter ordinarily has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct. Whatever his acts, they are dictated by his own conscience...It is difficult to exaggerate the importance of this fact.
Aldo Leopold
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RE: Bare Bones Pt 2 - The Spine - 11/6/2009 4:28:59 PM
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Goose
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I agree with you. I was actually a little surprised and bothered by that article.
I personally feel that you are much better and even more ethical by aiming for the front shoulder.
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Jake
Genesis 27:3 Take your bow and quiver full of arrows out into the open country, and hunt some wild game.....
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RE: Bare Bones Pt 2 - The Spine - 11/6/2009 4:48:53 PM
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MSHunter
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From: Mississippi
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X2 ^^
Getting the opportunity to take a shot at a deer is hard enough, why compound the level of difficulty by limiting the target area to the spine only, versus aiming for the vitals?
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RE: Bare Bones Pt 2 - The Spine - 11/11/2009 3:13:25 PM
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arkansas bob
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I killed my first deer in 1981, an 8 point, he was 30 feet away, walking behind brush when I first saw him, his head was down, nose to the ground when he stepped out of the brush and turned toward me. I shot him at 20 feet with a 30.30, hit him just to left of his spine, it came out my left side of his neck, made a slit 8" long he hit the ground and went nowhere, could move his neck and 1 front leg, but had to put another round in him to finish him off. My grand mother cooked the neck and said that I never hit a bone but it was close enuff to to do major damage to the spine. So yes sometimes a neck shot is a good shot, it all depends on the shot and your ability and weapon. A lot of people I know will take a shot at a running deer and will hit the deer where they are aiming at but I don't because I don't feel like I can make a good shot, but at 50 yards and less a walking deer will get shot (with a rifle and 4X scope, not a bow) in the neck.
< Message edited by arkansas bob -- 11/11/2009 3:28:42 PM >
_____________________________
"Freedom of speech is ultra important so stupid people will make their stupid statements so we know how stupid they are." -Ted Nugent
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RE: Bare Bones Pt 2 - The Spine - 11/12/2009 8:35:54 AM
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ranwin33
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It's not the problem of hitting the deer in the neck that concerns me, it's the problem of hitting the deer in the neck in a place it will kill it.
_____________________________
A peculiar virtue in wildlife ethics is the hunter ordinarily has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct. Whatever his acts, they are dictated by his own conscience...It is difficult to exaggerate the importance of this fact.
Aldo Leopold
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RE: Bare Bones Pt 2 - The Spine - 11/12/2009 9:06:02 AM
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Everyday Hunter
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ranwin33
It's not the problem of hitting the deer in the neck that concerns me, it's the problem of hitting the deer in the neck in a place it will kill it.
That's a good point. I've shot a couple of deer in the neck. The first one was with a .222 (my first buck) and it dropped in its tracks. The other one was a wide 6-point. It was a close running shot and it kept running, but there was a fair amount of blood. It went about 100 yards and I saw it coughing up blood. Then it ran another 50 yards and laid down where it died.
I think it's possible to take out the wind pipe and not do enough immediate damage to keep the deer from running off -- maybe a pretty good distance. It's also a possibility to inflict a pretty nasty flesh wound and not get the deer. No more neck shots for me.
Steve
_____________________________
When The Everyday Hunter isn't hunting, he’s thinking about hunting, talking about hunting, dreaming about hunting, writing about hunting, or wishing he were hunting.
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RE: Bare Bones Pt 2 - The Spine - 11/12/2009 7:06:48 PM
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Woods Walker
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X3 on the spine shots.
In the 25+ years that I've been a subscriber to D&DH, this article struck me as the second most unethical thing I've seen in there.
Yes, a GUNSHOT in the spine will drop a deer. I've done it (not on purpose) several times, and ALL of those times I had to cut throats.....while they look at you....not exactly my prefered way of dispatching an animal.
But in this article, he also talked about spine shots with a BOW....and A MECHANICAL HEAD TO BOOT!!!!!! Good Heavens, talk about asking for failure!!!!
Besides, a CENTER CHEST shot, if both lungs are pierced, will kill a deer outright in a minute or two at MOST. If you miss a lung, you still have a pretty good margin or error. Not so for the spine. It's like aiming for the femoral artery in the back leg. If you hit it, it's like opening the faucet, and the deer will drop momentarily. If you miss.....you have a wounded animal that you won't find, and may die of gangrene...nice.
The three deer I've spine shot, and the Russian boar were ALL very tough to eat, even with my hanging the deer as I normally do. I believe that it may have something to do with the adrenelin and stress the animal went through before death.
In case any of you were wondering what the #1 most unetical thing I ever saw in D&DH was, it was an ad for a bow rest that enabled you to shoot TWO arrows at one time,
"For twice the bloodtrail!"
And the most disturbing part was that they had a photo of, and an endorsement by, "ART LAHA, PIONEER WISCONSIN BOWHUNTER!"
I guess 'ol Art was down on his luck at that time and need the extra cash or something.
This also proves that this era doen't have a monoply on half-a***d gizmos and hucksterism. 
_____________________________
Hunt Hard,
Kill Swiftly,
Waste Nothing,
Offer No Apologies.....
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RE: Bare Bones Pt 2 - The Spine - 11/12/2009 7:12:26 PM
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Woods Walker
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From: Northern Illinois
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And don't even get me started on neck shots. I've had the "privilege" several times over the years to have to finish the job of some A****** who though neck shots were a good idea.
Hanging jaws, eyeballs hanging out, half the face shot away, festering wounds...... I damn near cried a couple of times, but thankful that I could end the poor creature's misery, when I did. 
If you like to take neck shots, please keep it to yourself, as I am not impressed.
_____________________________
Hunt Hard,
Kill Swiftly,
Waste Nothing,
Offer No Apologies.....
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RE: Bare Bones Pt 2 - The Spine - 11/12/2009 10:56:34 PM
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arkansas bob
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Everday hunter you said "The first one was with a .222", I am not familiar with that round but a buddy of mine years ago used a 223 ruger mini 14 hit the deer between the front legs below the neck, it should have when into the rib cage front to back but it went around the rib cage between the right front shoulder and rib cage and back out through the skin. Separated that shoulder, this was at 75 feet. The deer came by me using 3 legs, was walking head first to me, I shot from 20 feet, I hit 4 inches away from the first shot he went 50 feet down the hill and fell over dead. my 30.30 bullet went in the rib cage and back out through 2 ribs and was between the skin and rib cage. I learned that day that a .223 may be good for war but not deer hunting. I don't aways look for a neck shot, my last deer was taken with a 12 ga. slug, iron sites at 50 yds, broadside behind the front shoulder in the ribs, lung shot , he went 40 feet and fell over dead. All shots are different and need to be viewed that way, what worked last time may not ever work again.
_____________________________
"Freedom of speech is ultra important so stupid people will make their stupid statements so we know how stupid they are." -Ted Nugent
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RE: Bare Bones Pt 2 - The Spine - 11/13/2009 2:01:04 AM
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arkansas bob
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After rereading Bare Bones again I FAIL too see where Dr. Bishop advocates the use of bow for spine shots. As for the mechanical broad heads he is talking about a series of pictures on the internet, and goes on to say in the conclusion "A Spinal Paradox" "for achers, the deer spine is a formidable target that is occasionally effective, but at a high risk." I read this article as arrows? no! guns? Sometimes. His preference for shot placement is a spine shot. My shot placement will depend on a lot of factors. Anybody reading into this article that everbody should only make spine shots is not reading at all but demanding that everybody should only do as they do for they are the only ones who are right. This is much like the discussions about people who use crossbows and why the states must not allow people to use them (except for the disabled) Arkansas has allowed crossbows for over 25 years and still 80% to %90 of the hunters use compounds, recurves and longbows. The world did not end like some people in other states believe will happen. But this is what makes us a great nation we all can voice our opinion and we should respect others opinion instead of beating them down on forums. It is possible to stand tall without standing on someone. Or my lack of comprehension do to my 6th grade education has caused me to misread everything in the article and on this forum and I am as far out in left field as one can get. You know how us Arkie Hillbillies are! The only othe ting I can add is that I am glad that I did not make public is that I hunt with a crossbow, if this were a trout forum I would have to kept to my self that I use lures, jigs and nightcrawers for bait instead of FLIES!!! Time to end this and call it a night!
_____________________________
"Freedom of speech is ultra important so stupid people will make their stupid statements so we know how stupid they are." -Ted Nugent
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RE: Bare Bones Pt 2 - The Spine - 11/13/2009 1:39:33 PM
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Goose
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You bring up some valid points BUT IMO there is no good or necessary time to AIM for the spine. If the deer is directly below you, you should wait and take the shot when he walks away offering a lethal heart/lung shot. If he is broadside or quartering, the lungs/heart are your best options. How many times do you hear of spine shots that need a follow up shot? No deer deserves that, and we as responsible/ethical hunters should do everything we can to avoid that. Aiming for the spine is asking for this and that is a very unethical thing IMO.
_____________________________
Jake
Genesis 27:3 Take your bow and quiver full of arrows out into the open country, and hunt some wild game.....
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RE: Bare Bones Pt 2 - The Spine - 11/13/2009 6:39:54 PM
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Woods Walker
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From: Northern Illinois
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I agree with Goose. I re-read the article also, and although Dr. Bishop does state that he does not advocate the use of the spine shot with a bow, he does with a firearm.
Like I said, I have accidently shot several deer in the spine (and they were NOT too far back), and every one of them required either a follow-up shot, or a throat cutting, two end-games that I do NOT strive for. I want clean, one shot quick kills. No spine shot I have every had did any of those things.
I think this article was a low point for D&DH.
_____________________________
Hunt Hard,
Kill Swiftly,
Waste Nothing,
Offer No Apologies.....
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RE: Bare Bones Pt 2 - The Spine - 11/17/2009 6:58:58 PM
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B3N1706
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plus the best meat on the whole deer are the tenderloins, not only is a spine shot unnecessary and risky but why ruin a few inches of the backstraps??
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RE: Bare Bones Pt 2 - The Spine - 11/17/2009 7:06:31 PM
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Woods Walker
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From: Northern Illinois
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Why intentionally lose even a FRACTION of an inch of backstraps!!!
I'd more than gladly sacrifice a bit of a front shoulder for any part of the backstrap anyday.
_____________________________
Hunt Hard,
Kill Swiftly,
Waste Nothing,
Offer No Apologies.....
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RE: Bare Bones Pt 2 - The Spine - 11/17/2009 7:18:13 PM
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ranwin33
Posts: 1552
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From: Live Kansas - Hunt Missouri
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There really is just no call for a spine shot - given the only benefit, and I use that term loosely, is a deer dropped in it's tracks. You can do that with a shoulder shot, and even some broadside shots will accomplish this.
The two deer we've taken this gun season both pretty much dropped where they were hit, neither was a spine or shoulder shot but both were close enough to both or one of the shoulders to create enough shock to drop the deer.
And there wasn't a whole lot of meat damage despite shooting 270WSM and 300WSM rifles.
If you're worried about blood trailing, become a better trailer and don't take the risky shots.
_____________________________
A peculiar virtue in wildlife ethics is the hunter ordinarily has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct. Whatever his acts, they are dictated by his own conscience...It is difficult to exaggerate the importance of this fact.
Aldo Leopold
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RE: Bare Bones Pt 2 - The Spine - 11/17/2009 9:00:28 PM
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Everyday Hunter
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quote:
ORIGINAL: B3N1706
plus the best meat on the whole deer are the tenderloins, not only is a spine shot unnecessary and risky but why ruin a few inches of the backstraps??
I agree that the best meat on a deer are the tenderloins, but that's not the same thing as the backstraps. Anyone who ruins the tenderloins has not made a good shot. No one intentionally shoots a deer to hit the area where the tenderloins lie.
Steve
_____________________________
When The Everyday Hunter isn't hunting, he’s thinking about hunting, talking about hunting, dreaming about hunting, writing about hunting, or wishing he were hunting.
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RE: Bare Bones Pt 2 - The Spine - 11/17/2009 9:05:16 PM
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ranwin33
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From: Live Kansas - Hunt Missouri
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That would be true, but you are much more apt to take out the tenderloins while attempting a spine shot then you would if attempting a shoulder or heart/lung shot.
_____________________________
A peculiar virtue in wildlife ethics is the hunter ordinarily has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct. Whatever his acts, they are dictated by his own conscience...It is difficult to exaggerate the importance of this fact.
Aldo Leopold
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RE: Bare Bones Pt 2 - The Spine - 11/18/2009 2:21:59 PM
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buckhunter21
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Personally I would never take that shot...I'd pass the deer up before doing that. I do know guys that will take it, and have done so successfully, but I guess it's a personal choice. Not a very high percentage shot IMO!
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RE: Bare Bones Pt 2 - The Spine - 11/18/2009 2:30:44 PM
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Patriot
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Both of my deer this year (does) were unintentional spine shots. Onc with bow and one with gun.
Although the combined tracking was nill, I would not recommend the shot.
Both deer required follow up shots, and that is not something I like to do.
My gun kill last weekend was at first light and the doe dropped right there (75 yards away in very tall grass). I assumed she was dead and stayed on stand. Three hours later when I got down she was still very much alive. She had not been able to move much...it made me sick thinking how she had laid there all that time.
Lesson learned....I need to aim lower.
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Paul K. "aim small, miss small"
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RE: Bare Bones Pt 2 - The Spine - 11/18/2009 3:11:11 PM
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B3N1706
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huh, I guess you learn somethin everyday. In my neck of the woods people use the term tenderloin and back strap interchangably but upon a little digging I found out the difference. Well I was referring to the backstraps originally I guess, and NOW I cannot wait to harvest a doe and try some ACTUAL tenderloins......mmmm
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